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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Stock tires are pretty grippy for what they are and feel pretty soft and sticky once warmed up. They are also predictable when they give. Over all the are not too bad for what they are. Not as bad as folks claim them to be. I won't go back to them cause they are bias ply, radial tires are just better tires in every regard except price.

This past week I have ridden about 2k miles and this video show what the tires can get too. Once the lean angle gets to about the edge that is when they feel kinda iffy but predictable.

The folks that think they have out grown this or any "beginner" bike should be able to comfortably make the stock tires look like mine. If not then you are not ready to move up.

https://youtu.be/ow3Hrtpj1uI?list=PL-Ke-3ELTvujFloUaaJlx4ohbq8MdNts8
 

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The folks that think they have out grown this or any "beginner" bike should be able to comfortably make the stock tires look like mine. If not then you are not ready to move up.
I've had my bike at the track, I can make my tires look like yours but so what? Am I supposed to move up to a 600RR now? I've had 750's and 900's previously but the 300 suits my needs just fine for the time being.

Of more concern to me tho is your implication that a novice rider has to earn his or her rite of passage by scrubbing off their chicken strips at maximum lean angles. What sort of a message is that to send out? A potentially dangerous one in my opinion.

I'm sorry but I found your clip quite egotistical.
 

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A rider can comfortably control a larger bike safely without tearing up their tires. In fact, I would even posit that the type of rider who is proud of making his tires look like that (outside of a track setting)is more likely the type of rider that'll get himself killed on a bike with more power.
 

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I don't think there is any set rule about when a person is ready to step up to a bigger bike. I'm of the opinion that you can get a 600 early on and be just fine as long as you take the time familiarize yourself and get comfortable with the extra weight and power.

I'm not suggesting that a first time rider should hop right onto a Busa once they get their endorsement. But riders should be aware of the potential hazards of having that much bike at their control.
 

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Discussion Starter · #6 ·
What I'm saying is that if a newer rider can't handle a smaller bike they ain't ready for a larger one. This has noting to do with people that have skill and "should" move up, these folks can do what ever they want. This is directed towards the attitude that these newer 300 class of bikes are not necessarily "beginner" bikes.

I was far from max lean angles. Didn't come anywhere near touching the feelers on the pegs. The feelers are there to let you know you are about to touch hard parts and reach the lean angle limit of the tires. The virgin whiskers is evident of my lean angle.

It comes down to technique/skill. If a rider can't control a "beginner" bike then they ain't got no right to move up to a bigger one. You wouldn't hand the keys of a Ferrari to a kid that just got their drivers license why would you say to someone with not enough skill to handle a "beginner" bike to say it is okay to get an r6/600rr/r1/etc? If a rider isn't comfortable leaning a small bike over then they're not ready to move up.

I have seen way too many beginners that started on a 250/300 and moved up after a summer, couple thousand miles, and think they have "out grown" their "beginner" bike. I'm glad that they did start on a smaller bike but tell them to put in at least 10k miles in the twisty first, not freeway miles, before they consider moving up. People can do what ever they want with their money but it is a case of just cause you could buy a bigger bike doesn't mean you should get one. Instead put that money into more advance riding skill classes and better safety gear.

The thing with beginners thinking they "out grown" a bike has to do with how they feel when they are going straight on the freeway and accelerating. Those feeling gos away quickly and is foolish to think that one has "out grown" a bike because of that. But way more times then I can count, as chatting and inquiring more with beginners this is the reason they give as to want to move up. This type of thinking is foolish at best, and will cost them their life at worst.
 

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Discussion Starter · #7 ·
A rider can comfortably control a larger bike safely without tearing up their tires. In fact, I would even posit that the type of rider who is proud of making his tires look like that (outside of a track setting)is more likely the type of rider that'll get himself killed on a bike with more power.
With skill one can lean the bike over to the edge at 25mph or even less. Go to youtube and look for motorcycle cop course videos. I've taken a law enforcement motorcycle skills class for civilians and what you see in those videos are the same things they have you doing in the class.
 

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Stock tires are pretty grippy for what they are and feel pretty soft and sticky once warmed up. They are also predictable when they give. Over all the are not too bad for what they are. Not as bad as folks claim them to be. I won't go back to them cause they are bias ply, radial tires are just better tires in every regard except price.

This past week I have ridden about 2k miles and this video show what the tires can get too. Once the lean angle gets to about the edge that is when they feel kinda iffy but predictable.

The folks that think they have out grown this or any "beginner" bike should be able to comfortably make the stock tires look like mine. If not then you are not ready to move up.

https://youtu.be/ow3Hrtpj1uI?list=PL-Ke-3ELTvujFloUaaJlx4ohbq8MdNts8
I'm not a beginner rider, but I'm closer to the edges on my Yamaha FZS600SP and Honda CBR650FA than my CBR300R. I was closer to the edge on my CBR1000RR Fireblade too.

Great to see how close to the edge you are getting on the CB300F :) .
 

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:nerd: I'm afraid that there are a lot of riders out there that can't really handle their bikes. It boils down to ego and the car park willy waving that goes on.
The problem with most riders nowadays is they have gained little experience during their formative years in riding everyday and building up experience slowly.
All too often it is a condensed course that only prepares them for the test and nothing more. And because the person taking up motorcycling today is more affluent they can then go on to buy the biggest motorcycle they can afford and consequently end up out of their depth, **** scared of the thing and into the nearest field/oncoming car when the going gets a bit lively. In many ways we are our own worst enemies and the haters/ governments just love it, and use our own stupidity to save us from ourselves and ban these oh so dangerous motorcycles:crying:
 

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There are many 'skills' required before one can reasonably claim to be a good rider, but lean angle isn't high on my list. It can be rewarding and/or exciting to explore the limits, but for a road rider I put lots of other things higher on the list. Probably the top item for me would be situational awareness, then self control.

Lots of people buy bigger bikes, not to go faster round corners, but to gain extra stability, make overtaking easier, accommodate the weight of a pillion or luggage better, gain more torque and thus reduce the need for gearchanging - or just because they enjoy the kudos that comes with having a big bike! None of these requires that you pass a 'chicken strip test'........
 

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You're using a single measure to decide if somebody is ready to move on? A measure that only relates to track racing?

Give your head a shake. I could ride a bike for 100 years and never get that much wear on the edge of the tire.

How about defensive driving? What to do in gravel? Low speed handling, proper shifting and throttle control (and I don't mean for racing). Lane technique and traffic awareness?

There is very little you can learn on a track that will actually transfer to the street, simply because on the track you're on the razor's edge, and on the street you shouldn't be anywhere near it.
 

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To me, having edge to edge tire wear on a bike ridden on public roads isn't saying much... other than the rider is likely pushing things beyond what would be considered safe and responsible.

And to say that not having chicken strips is a good or reasonable gauge as to whether someone is ready for a bigger bike is just silly.
 

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Discussion Starter · #13 · (Edited)
Yes there are many factors but they all come down to one thing: control, being able to confidently control a bike in what ever situation that arises.

Only really one situation that one doesn't have control over is when a deer or other large enough animal jumps out in front of you. I forget his name but he wrote about and taught motorcycle skill and safety. He had mention that he could deal with pretty much any situation except a deer. The ironic thing was that was how he was killed a few years ago. I agree with him.

Ones person fast is another person's slow. Depending on skill a person with lots of skill can be riding at 50% skill while some one of lesser skill doing the same thing will be at 100% skill. For street it is a bad ideal to be at or near 100%. Safe to go up to about 80% capacity this gives enough margin of error for **** to happen and you can deal with it and come out okay.

As I mentioned it doesn't take much speed to be able to get to the edge of a tire. 25mph is all that is needed to get from edge to egde if you have enough ground clearance. Most riders can't do this cause they don't have the skill. They usually freak out after a certain lean angle. People assume that you have to be going really fast to get rid of the chicken strips.

check out this video and see how much braking, accelerating and lean angle on a wet surface. This takes skill that 99% of motorcycle riders don't have.
https://youtu.be/pVoXGGXRl5k

Check this guys lean angles, 99% of motorcyle riders can't do this either
https://youtu.be/fXWVYtsf43Y

This is an awesome video of what does on with a motorcyle in turns. What cause people to crash is that they fight the motorcycle.
https://youtu.be/8ZFdxEWpefI
 

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Yes there are many factors but they all come down to one thing: control, being able to confidently control a bike in what ever situation that arises.

(then a lot of stuff about speed and skill)
I still don't think you're making you're point very well here. There is no skill involved in leaning further - just willingness to take risks. How does that make you a better rider? Lean angle isn't even the only determinant of speed in corners; there is much more to going fast than lean angle. I have said before, two riders using very different speeds can use the same lean angle - just go and watch a club-level race. How hard you can push the tyres is the real limiting factor. i can't push them very far, to be honest, but I can rid the tyres of chicken strips, no problem.
 

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Discussion Starter · #15 ·
How about defensive driving? What to do in gravel? Low speed handling, proper shifting and throttle control (and I don't mean for racing). Lane technique and traffic awareness?
Some of these have nothing to do with what bike you are riding and some becomes worse with a more powerful bike. These "beginner" bikes are very forgiving to mistakes
 

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Discussion Starter · #16 ·
I still don't think you're making you're point very well here. There is no skill involved in leaning further - just willingness to take risks. How does that make you a better rider? Lean angle isn't even the only determinant of speed in corners; there is much more to going fast than lean angle. I have said before, two riders using very different speeds can use the same lean angle - just go and watch a club-level race. How hard you can push the tyres is the real limiting factor. i can't push them very far, to be honest, but I can rid the tyres of chicken strips, no problem.
There is skill in leaning, that is why beginners don't hardly lean, they have yet to develop those skills. The more you lean the less traction there is and you need control/skill to manage that traction. Also the feeling of being tipped over freaks beginners out and they fight it and end up crashing. Speed involves traction as well. Leaning at the same angle a bike doing 25mph will have more traction then one doing 50mph. But I'm not talking about speed in corners I'm talking about control. At a given angle there isn't much risk doing 25mph compared to 75mph. I've crashed mtn bikes doing 25mph wearing spandex no big deal, with proper gear on a moto it is also no big deal unless you get hit by another vehicle or hit something like a post/tree/gaurdrail. At 75mph chances are you're not getting up.

The point is that these so called beginner bikes are much more capable then most people will ever get to and to think that they'll out grow a beginner bike in a short time and move up to a more powerful bike that they think they have the skills that they don't have is foolish.

Look at the statistics of accidents and it shows by a wide majority % beginners are involved...and this is not just young guys the older midlife beginner guys % are just as high if not higher then the young guys. Actually the midlife crisis guys tend to be worse cause they almost never buy beginner bikes. With these new crop of beginner bikes I have seen lots more young guys riding them. You don't see too many midlifers riding Rebel250s or even 883s they'll just go to a 1200 or 1800 right from the get go. Even if one never breaks the speed limit on what ever bike they're riding they don't have the skills to handle a powerful bike when **** happens.

All to often I hear people say they had to dump a bike to prevent hitting something. This is a very typical answer for a lack of skill no matter have long they have ridden. If they had kept the bike up and had the skills to use the brakes or maneuver it they wouldn't of crash to beginner with. A part of skill improvement is to push a little harder and test your limits as a rider not necessarily the limits of the bike because most riders will never be able to use the full capabilities of a bike. As an example almost every time I ride will at least once be hard on the brakes to the limits of traction. I do this to keep my braking skill fresh because any moment you might need to do just that and if you don't know what if feels like then how are you suppose to do it when **** really does happens. I do this in various conditions so I know how it feels when it rains or when gravely etc. I do it with lean angles as well as other bike control skills. If you don't practice these things how are you suppose to get better or maintain your skill. And yes motorcycle skills are a perishable skill, use it or lose it. It comes back to control. The more control you have the better off you are and that means you have to push your capabilities to further develop/maintain your skill.
 

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There is skill in leaning, that is why beginners don't hardly lean, they have yet to develop those skills.......Leaning at the same angle a bike doing 25mph will have more traction then one doing 50mph......I've crashed mtn bikes doing 25mph wearing spandex .....All to often I hear people say they had to dump a bike to prevent hitting something. This is a very typical answer for a lack of skill .......A part of skill improvement is to push a little harder and test your limits.........
Dear God.
 

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This is how you know you are ready for a bigger bike...in my opinion:
1. Have the $$$
2. Need the extra power for whatever reason
3. And when you are truly comfortable and mature to run a bigger bike.

Having no chicken strips has nothing to do with anything about being ready for a more powerful bike. I can wipe out my chicken strips at the track no problem. I was able to lean my bike @ 45deg in the first week of owning my first bike, but it doesn't mean squat other than being risky on the streets, that's why I only lean aggressively at the race track. More lean equals less tire contact and overall grip which is bad for the street riding person. I know someone who is fast on the track without even getting on the edge of the tires, but because he has good body position, he is quick no doubt.

I think bigger bikes and little bikes are all the same. The lighter bikes are easier to manage that's it. I think little bikes are just as dangerous as the bigger bikes. Just my humble opinion.
 
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.......I think bigger bikes and little bikes are all the same. The lighter bikes are easier to manage that's it. I think little bikes are just as dangerous as the bigger bikes. Just my humble opinion.
I agree with everything you say except the above, if by 'bigger' you mean faster. More power usually means more speed and acceleration, both of which can get the rider into more trouble and, all else being equal, they will arrive at the scene of the accident going faster and carrying more energy. More speed and energy usually means more hurt.

Then there is torque. I can open the throttle much earlier on the little CeeBee than I would on a 1000cc or even 600cc sports bike, without fear of the rear letting go. Even if the CeeBee does slip, there usually isn't enough torque to keep it sliding and, in many cases, a small bike will hook up again all by itself - even before the "Oh crap!" message makes it from my brain to my right hand.

Weight plays a part too, making rescue efforts harder if things get a bit scary mid-corner or when you leave your braking a little late.

All of these things can be mitigated by skill and experience.
 
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^ That's exactly why I mentioned on #3 . Comfort and maturity before stepping up on a bigger bike. To be comfortable on any vehicle you obviously have to have some kind of sense of skill to operate it on a bare minimum, and confidence which you can learn from any bike. Everybody is different in the learning curve department. I started on an FZ1 liter bike I believe, it was very fast but I didn't have issues with it other than seat height was a bit too tall but I adjusted. Then I stepped up to a 1000RR, but when I bought a another car and got into track racing I down graded too a ninja 250/300 to be able to have extra funds for the track. I did the same thing with cars, I got a mid-engine MR2 with 355hp setup. To some people that mid-engine layout is tough to drive to the limits but for some no issues. Just know your limitations and improve on that.
 
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